Pension-for-life plan

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Pension-for-life plan

Post by Forcell on Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:16 pm

Disappointed veterans take aim at Liberal government's pension-for-life plan

THE CANADIAN PRESS
Published January 8, 2018

OTTAWA — The Trudeau government enters the second half of its mandate facing anger and frustration from Canadian military veterans over its recently announced pension scheme for those injured in uniform.

The National Council of Veteran Associations, which represents more than 60 veterans' groups, is the latest to come out against the pension plan, which Veterans Affairs Minister Seamus O'Regan unveiled just days before Christmas.

The new scheme was meant to fulfil the Liberal campaign promise to reinstate lifelong pensions for disabled veterans, which were replaced in 2006 by a lump-sum payment and other targeted financial assistance.

But while the government says its plan will provide more compensation than the current system, the National Council of Veterans Association says most disabled veterans will not see any real benefit.

Association chairman Brian Forbes says that means the financial disparity between veterans injured before and after 2006 — the source of much anger for many veterans — continues to exist.

Many veterans voted for the Liberals in the last election expecting that disparity to be addressed, says Forbes, who believes the government will face a backlash in the 2019 election if it doesn't fix the problem.

The Canadian Press

http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/1534857-disappointed-veterans-take-aim-at-liberal-governments-pension-for-life-plan

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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by bosn181 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:23 pm

trooper called it saying it would not amount to much. i was hopefull they would fix it and make it better for all i know we still have time before it takes affect so now i hopeful they will keep the pressure on them and they will make the changes needed before it takes affect.

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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Trooper on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:41 pm

This is just what I have been talking about all these years of how the bureaucrats spin things to make things seem logical and or the bullshit they pass on to the Veterans Affairs Ministers on defending The new charter. Who do these guys think their fooling? Not anymore folks! We will no longer allow these low life individuals to insult our intelligence thinking we are going to buy their bull!

Read this;

By LEE BERTHIAUME, THE CANADIAN PRESS

Posted Jan 8, 2018


Pay particular attention to the para's in bold!

OTTAWA – The Trudeau Liberals are going into the second half of their mandate facing anger from many disabled veterans over what some are calling a betrayal: the government’s new pension plan for those injured while in uniform.

The National Council of Veteran Associations, which represents more than 60 veteran groups, has become the latest to come out against the pension plan, which Veterans Affairs Minister Seamus O’Regan unveiled before Christmas.

The new scheme was intended to fulfil the Liberals’ campaign promise to reinstate lifelong pensions for disabled veterans, which were replaced in 2006 with a lump-sum payment and other targeted financial assistance.

But while the government says its plan will provide disabled veterans with more compensation, the council said its analysis had found most injured ex-soldiers would not see any real benefit.

That means the financial disparity between veterans injured before and after 2006 — the source of much anger for many veterans — will continue to persist, said council chairman Brian Forbes.

“I can’t find too many illustrations of anyone who comes close to what they would have received under the Pension Act, even with these new enhancements,” said Forbes, who is also executive director of The War Amps Canada.

“So if you were injured in 2003 in Afghanistan as opposed to being injured in 2007 with the same disability, you have significantly different financial benefits. How is that acceptable? Same war, same conflict, different benefits.”

Many veterans voted for the Liberals in the last election expecting that disparity to be addressed, either through reinstatement of the previous pension system or dramatically increased benefits, including to those who are moderately injured.

O’Regan acknowledged when he rolled out the pension plan Dec. 20 that it would not please everyone, and veterans have not shied away from expressing their anger and disappointment on social media.

But the fact one of Canada’s largest veterans’ organizations has come out against the scheme is noteworthy, particularly as federal political parties begin making plans for the 2019 federal election.

A spokesman for O’Regan defended the new plan on Monday, saying it would provide more money to all disabled veterans, and asserting that the old pensions did not provide enough support.

“With the exception of the most seriously disabled, the rates were insufficient to support veterans who were struggling to re-establish into their post-service life,” Alex Wellstead said in an email.

“Additionally, the Pension Act did not offer rehabilitation, education or transitional support. Under that system, veterans faced challenges successfully transitioning to life after service.”


The Liberals were the only party to promise to reinstate lifelong pensions for disabled veterans during the election.

That promise raised expectations during the campaign, said Forbes, leaving many veterans who voted Liberal to feel “betrayed” by the new plan because it doesn’t measure up to the commitment.

“Mr. Trudeau knew exactly what he was doing. He knew this was a sore point, that the Conservative party had let the veterans’ side down and he was going to basically create a solution,” he said.

“It’s fair to say the disappointment (with the new plan) has been immense because it just didn’t do the trick.”

The new pension plan won’t come into effect until April 2019, and Forbes urged the government to use the intervening time to adopt the recommendations made by a ministerial advisory group in October 2016.

Those include relaxing the criteria that injured veterans must meet to access some financial assistance and including more money for those with families and needing help at home.

If not, he warned, the Liberals could face consequences at the ballot box.

“As a political matter, it’s hard to imagine the prime minister and his party wanting to go into the next election without satisfying the expectation here,” Forbes said.

“If you’re going to make a promise to provide lifetime pensions, then do it.”

http://www.660news.com/2018/01/08/disappointed-veterans-take-aim-at-liberal-governments-pension-for-life-plan/

Seamus is just filling the void as Minister of Veterans Affairs. He will follow exactly what the bureaucrats tell him, this a fact. Another fact is Seamus will not act on anything of real substance brought to him from outside the bureaucratic circle, fact. Seamus is a follower plain and simple. They are using words such as " that the old pensions did not provide enough support." That right there shows they are lost for sound logical excuses, any new support that came into force 2006 forward could have easily been added to the old pension act. “With the exception of the most seriously disabled, the rates were insufficient to support veterans who were struggling to re-establish into their post-service life,” That right there is a complete lie! The rates are posted here for all to see, further to this the rates for the old pension act are all Tax Free! “Additionally, the Pension Act did not offer rehabilitation, education or transitional support. Under that system, veterans faced challenges successfully transitioning to life after service.” That's not totally correct, SISIP was and still is available for rehab, and education to those from the old pension act. Again all of this transition, rehab, and education could have been added to the old act. It is simply down right irresponsible, absurd for the government to use these words as a way to defend a system that is far more inferior than the old pension act!

You guys read this carefully, you be the judge. Is all of this to save money? Or is it the bureaucrats creating long term security for themselves? Is it a combination of both?

If you think the same as I about all of this about the Minister being bought by the bureaucrats, the bureaucrats creating all of this for their own interest, there should be no reason for any of us to count on Seamus to do anything for us. Remember what he said, I know some won't be pleased he said about the new pension, Hehr said the exact same thing when promises were announced. This is all a front folks! The Minister is only playing the part of Minister, the bureaucrats are really the ones running the show. There will be no favorable results in negotiating with the government! Plain and simple! Anyone who argues this is not in touch with reality! Plain and simple! Seamus also said using some of the above words that he will never go back to the old pension act. Take everything I wrote, and add the BC appeal court ruling, add the fact that advocacy is taken the path of negotiating with the government, what does this all add up too? I say take what we have been given, wait until the next election, and hope someone somewhere comes up with a tactical plan that actually works.
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by JAFO on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 pm

Trooper we ALL know the bureaucrats run VAC. We ALL know the Minister takes his orders from them. You continually tell us this but you have yet to make a suggestion on what we need to do? Your repeating yourself, even when someone tries to bring light to the inner workings of advocacy and the experience of some advocates.

On another thread I said I hoped the press digs into what Brian Forbes said and they are doing it. They are exposing the outright lie Trudeau made during the last election. What we need to do now is keep feeding the press with facts.

We need to encourage vet orgs to back up what Brian Forbes stated. He has the MOST experience in advocating, over 40 years, and he has seen, heard and talked to veterans so he absolutely knows what we are going thru.

What we need to acknowledge is his, Forbes, experience. We are not professional advocates we are soldiers who were injured and had to learn to advocate. So why not learn from Forbes?

I was serious VAC does not like him. The crap Alex Wellstead said is proof that Forbes press statement on 5 Jan has gotten under their skin and NOW is the time to burrow in and become that tick on VAC's that is impossible twist off and discard.

One thing that will 100% prove what Forbes said is for a vet org to do an actuarial on the PFL. The last actuarial, done by the Ombudsman, showed that when vets hit 65 their income is below the poverty line.

What happened?

The Cons felt the pressure and created post 65 benefits. So we NEED an actuarial to prove to the bureaucratic mandarins their PFL is Pure F'n Lunacy!

Oh and don't even think the Cons or NDP will say they will go back to the PA. They said it before the election and during the election because they know the only way to bring back the tax free pension for life is to merge the PA and NVC.
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Trooper on Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:06 am

JAFO wrote:Trooper we ALL know the bureaucrats run VAC.  We ALL know the Minister takes his orders from them.  You continually tell us this but you have yet to make a suggestion on what we need to do?  Your repeating yourself, even when someone tries to bring light to the inner workings of advocacy and the experience of some advocates.

On another thread I said I hoped the press digs into what Brian Forbes said and they are doing it.  They are exposing the outright lie Trudeau made during the last election.  What we need to do now is keep feeding the press with facts.

We need to encourage vet orgs to back up what Brian Forbes stated.  He has the MOST experience in advocating, over 40 years, and he has seen, heard and talked to veterans so he absolutely knows what we are going thru.  

What we need to acknowledge is his, Forbes, experience.  We are not professional advocates we are soldiers who were injured and had to learn to advocate.  So why not learn from Forbes?

I was serious VAC does not like him.  The crap Alex Wellstead said is proof that Forbes press statement on 5 Jan has gotten under their skin and NOW is the time to burrow in and become that tick on VAC's that is impossible twist off and discard.

One thing that will 100% prove what Forbes said is for a vet org to do an actuarial on the PFL.  The last actuarial, done by the Ombudsman, showed that when vets hit 65 their income is below the poverty line.  

What happened?  

The Cons felt the pressure and created post 65 benefits.  So we NEED an actuarial to prove to the bureaucratic mandarins their PFL is Pure F'n Lunacy!

Oh and don't even think the Cons or NDP will say they will go back to the PA.  They said it before the election and during the election because they know the only way to bring back the tax free pension for life is to merge the PA and NVC.  

JAFO,

This forum is open to the public for viewing therefore not everyone understands the workings of the bureaucratic circle within the Veterans file. It's always good to enlighten or remind the audience of the fact that the bureaucrats run the Veterans file, and the Minister allows it.

I agree 100% that we should continue to feed the press with not only Forbes take, but with any input that shines some light on what is happening with our file. In fact if you read some of my post you will see where I write that the use of the Media, and Social media should always continue.

You can forget about other Veteran groups jumping in to take advice from anyone, including Forbes. As you well know Veterans, and groups are divided right across the board, we see this everyday. In fact the division has increased over the time of the new charter, that's what it's doing, dividing us. I don't like it, but I see it therefore understand it.

What is Forbes going to teach us that we don't already know? He can have 60 years experience but if he has no factual real solution? What is the point? I'm not saying this to bash him, or any other advocate but looking at it from a stand point of facts, and known history of past tactics used, we are not progressing with simple media tactics. It is one tactic, but not the overhaul solution.

It does not matter one bit that VAC does not like Forbes. The bureaucrats can handle 1000 Forbes. We have seen the government beat us at every angle since the creation of the new charter. We have seen them handle advocates at every level. In fact it's this type of situation that feeds the governments PR system. They are very good at handling the backlash that comes from Veterans and Veteran groups. So the media alone will not be the solution.

As far as me making or given my input as to suggestions or solutions in terms of what direction Veterans, and Veteran groups should take you obviously have not read all of my post. I have suggested many times on this forum and csat forum that we need to first Boycott the government completely, we then continue to use the Media, Social Media, and put our effort into Organized, Public, Protest. This is the only way to beat the government. The media alone will not cut it. Forbes and others need to realize this, we have seen many knowledgeable individuals such as Forbes, and others make excellent points, put the government in it's place if you will. But this alone only feeds into the government PR system. Yes using the media does shed some light but the government has clearly showed they can handle this without any problems.

This can sometimes be a difficult subject to talk or write about because it sounds as though I, and others are attacking our fellow Veterans. It is not about attacking one another in the way we see things, it's about change. If you look back at the beginning of the new charter to this day, you will see that negotiating with the government has not worked, a plain and simple fact, but yet we see this tactic continue to be used. Yes we are all ex soldiers who are not experts at advocating and need to learn as we move forward, but to continue to use tactics that don't, and haven't worked is not learning anything.

My post of Yesterday at 7:41 pm was more to show how the bureaucrats use of ludicrous excuses to defend the new charter against the old pension act.

I think we need to learn from our mistakes, and move on. Yes we should continue to use the Media, social media to shed some light, but to think at this point in time that the media alone or even negotiating with the government is going to make a difference between now, and the next election is not logical. Sometimes in life we say or do things that come across as being negative towards your fellow human being, but it can also be something that sounds negative but is really meant as positive. In this case positive would mean to make a suggestion that aids in moving in a different positive direction in terms of advocating.

Tactics in advocating for Veterans need to change, the status quo of advocating simply has not, and will not work. This has nothing to do with bashing others, but has everything to do with change, something that we all need to understand if we ever want to see some positive change come from advocating for Veterans.
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Dannypaj on Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:56 am

Can we provided a list of all these so called Bureaucrats involved in our file, sort of like an alphabet phone book, where all names and position are listed.
Or does that already exist, but we have no rights to it (IDK)?

Trooper, there should be a book  "Bureaucrats for DUMMIES" although it would be a shortly narrated book  (use your imagination to why) I.e. what self-serving bureaucrats can think up to help  maintain their positions of power.

Faces and names  
Then we would know what we are up against...
I.e. what gives them higher credentials to judge another human being.

This promise made to our Veteran's Community should of been priority number one for the sake of Canada and the sake of our Government, no matter the leader nor the party in power.

Accountability/ Transparency

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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Dannypaj on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:14 am

Keep hammering away.
Keep the communication fluent.
Always share what is out there, reference our file to others.
Some veterans are okay with the NVC, but have no idea even to why they are okay with it..
Hmmm Communication is a flowing downstream to us and we better shore up the misinformation being spread.
Deal or no Deal?
NO DEAL!
This is not what was promised!

Think about it in simple math

$10,500,000  or $360,000

I am worth more/ you are worth more.
The above numbers are  disgraceful.

Back in the early eighties I sat and watched as a youngster the Airborne Regiment training, parachuting in the drop zone.....guess what the opponent was dressed up as?

But yet, $10,500,000 to O.K!

Something is absolutely not right here.
I heard during the CBC news, that the so called "Invisible GOC  people/Bureaucrats" intervened and the general public/ commoners were not to hear of this settlement.

Just stating FACTS.
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Trooper on Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:43 pm

The following is a 2016 article on Senior Veterans Affairs bureaucrats receiving bonuses even as they cut public service jobs, closed offices and faced off with wounded soldiers fed up with poor service from the department.

Welcome to the world of VAC bureaucrats.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/veterans-affairs-senior-bureaucrats-raked-in-bonuses-while-closing-offices-feuding-with-ex-soldiers
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Dannypaj on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:10 am

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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Trooper on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:51 am


Prime Ministers Town Hall Sackville NS Jan 09, 2018

Click not now when prompted to log in - to view the video

https://www.facebook.com/JustinPJTrudeau/videos/10156348013325649/
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Wolfman on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:44 pm

BETRAYAL: Growing Number Of Canadian Veterans Organizations Slam Trudeau For Breaking Pension Promise

NEWS SPENCERFERNANDO JANUARY 9, 2018

Trudeau took advantage of the trust many Patriotic Canadian Veterans put in him, using a promise to restore the pension for life to gain votes, and then betraying that promise once in power.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2018/01/09/betrayal-growing-number-canadian-veterans-organizations-slam-trudeau-breaking-pension-promise/
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by pinger on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 pm

JAFO and Trooper,

IMO the only problem is the approach to GoC on our file. . .
That said, consolidating a common effort between our selves is the pickle.

Now then, How do we fix the the "pickle" ?

Think about who's got the impact on change and what they (us) may or may not be prepared to do.
I'm up to it, more than words inspite of the fact that my body is a tad fubar.
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Dannypaj on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:28 am



Town hall meetings.

Great Freudian slip at McMaster university.
30 seconds into the town hall and a great introduction to our Minster of E & CC.
What did you hear?


Last edited by Dannypaj on Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Dannypaj on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:38 am

Dannypaj wrote:
Dannypaj wrote:Keep hammering away.
Keep the communication fluent.
Always share what is out there, reference our file to others.
Some veterans are okay with the NVC, but have no idea even to why they are okay with it..
Hmmm Communication is a flowing downstream to us and we better shore up the misinformation being spread.
Deal or no Deal?
NO DEAL!
This is not what was promised!

Think about it in simple math

$10,500,000  or $360,000

I am worth more/ you are worth more.
The above numbers are  disgraceful.

Back in the early eighties I sat and watched as a youngster the Airborne Regiment training, parachuting in the drop zone.....guess what the opponent was dressed up as?

But yet, $10,500,000 to O.K!

Something is absolutely not right here.
I heard during the CBC news, that the so called "Invisible GOC  people/Bureaucrats" intervened and the general public/ commoners were not to hear of this settlement.

Just stating FACTS.

Town hall meetings.

$40,000,000, where is this figure coming from when speaking of settling a particular case?
It doesn't make any sense for him to tell us to stay angry about a Canadian going to Gitmo.
People don't just end up in Gitmo.
Yes, be outraged "if" an individual was scooped up in Canada and extradited.
But when you are in a location that is in a red zone with a family history....makes one wonder exactly where this money came from.

Gitmo in the later years became a holding facility with rights and accommodations, so don't kid yourself on the sort of treatment that was received.

Now...Reverse the roles will ya, "If" you were captured in a foreign country....would they of followed the Geneva Convention Act, no.

And to add to all of this, now they say they have "no Sacred Obligation" and can make phony promises.
Now the big reveal, to discover that the announcement reindeers itself as inferior.
A month hasn't even gone by and the critics are unimpressed and are all over this.

So, stay angry that a disabled veteran is worth less
Stay angry that our leader is weak
Stay angry that Canada, the beacon of peace is being challenged by someone who lied to his soldiers
Stay angry until we have proper reform and that when the coin is flipped it isn't; "tails you lose, head GOC wins!"

But staying angry is not the focus here lady and gentleman.
We're veterans.
Our fighting should be long over, but yet we cant have any real peace of mind with what has transpired prior to the Christmas.

In a nutshell
The leak of O.K's settlement and his compensation is far superior to an injured veterans.

To keep going to the supreme court?
It is a good way to lay it all out on the table.
The media are in our favour, the public is in our favour, the world is our favour, but the only ones who are not are our "so called leaders."
Put as much brass on it as you want, in the end it is just an instrument of the GOC.
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Re: Pension-for-life plan

Post by Dannypaj on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:47 am

Grave breaches

3 (1) Every person who, whether within or outside Canada, commits a grave breach referred to in Article 50 of Schedule I, Article 51 of Schedule II, Article 130 of Schedule III, Article 147 of Schedule IV or Article 11 or 85 of Schedule V is guilty of an indictable offence, and

(a) if the grave breach causes the death of any person, is liable to imprisonment for life; and


(b) in any other case, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

Where else could he of been sent?
They sent him with his peers to Gitmo
and was interviewed.
He may of acted like a soldier at first, but mental break down and "Puff" his reformed, like you and I.
Hello nurse, can you change my bed pan?
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