Canadian submarines not part of international Arctic under-ice exercise

by Wolverine Mon 11 Jun 2018, 11:04 am

The security of Canada’s Arctic sovereignty is dependent on U.S.-Canada relationship, expert says

Kaila Jefferd-Moore · CBC News · Posted: Jun 11, 2018

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/canadian-submarines-not-part-of-international-arctic-under-ice-exercise-1.4699208

by Xrayxservice Tue 19 Jun 2018, 5:05 pm

HMCS Windsor returns to Halifax after completing a 5-month deployment in the Euro-Atlantic region. The submarine will dock in Halifax Wednesday.

DAVID PUGLIESE, OTTAWA CITIZEN
June 19, 2018

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canadian-submarine-ends-five-month-mission

by **Alpha** Wed 20 Jun 2018, 12:59 pm

Welcome home: Navy submarine HMCS Windsor back in Halifax

June 20, 2018

by Leopard Tue 27 Nov 2018, 8:55 am

Canadian Forces says submarines can operate until mid-2020s - but still no details on how fleet will be upgraded

DAVID PUGLIESE, OTTAWA CITIZEN November 27, 2018

Submarines The-royal-canadian-navy-submarine-hmcs-victoria-is-operating

The Victoria-class submarines were expected to reach the end of their operational lives starting in 2022, according to documents obtained under the Access to Information law.

That could have been a major problem for the federal government as it is looking at planning a modernization program for the on-board systems on the class, starting in 2023 or 2024.

If the subs were to reach the end of their operational lives starting a year earlier, how would that have worked?

Defence Watch asked that question and has been informed that things have now changed. Department of National Defence spokesman Daniel Le Bouthillier said that the Victoria-class start to reach the end of their operational life in the mid-2020s. That later date was determined after DND officials did a more extensive examination of the submarine fleet life.

But there are still no details on what needs to be done to extend the life of the subs, how much that will cost, or when that will be done. “The Victoria-class Modernization (VCM) Program is currently in the Options Analysis stage, where the preferred modernization option is being selected,” Le Bouthillier noted. “Details of specific capabilities and milestones will be determined as the program evolves.”

Last year Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan praised the capability submarines provide Canada. “No other platform in the Canadian Armed Forces can do what a submarine can do,” Sajjan said. “No other platform has the stealth, the intelligence-gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance capability and the deterrence to potential adversaries that a sub does.”

But the Liberals have rejected a Commons defence committee recommendation that the Victoria-class subs, bought used in 1998 from the United Kingdom, be replaced with submarines capable of under-ice capabilities.

“The government has also committed to modernizing the four Victoria-class submarines to include weapons and sensor upgrades that will enhance the ability of the submarines to conduct Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) and deliver necessary improvements of platform and combat systems to extend operational capability to the mid-2030’s,” the government response to the committee noted.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canadian-forces-says-submarines-can-operate-until-mid-2020s-it-is-still-determining-how-to-upgrade

by **Diesel** Thu 24 Jan 2019, 12:43 pm

January 24, 2019

COMMENTARY: Canada will screw up the submarine replacement. It’s just a matter of how and when

By Matt Gurney
Radio Host Global News

I’ll say this for Canada’s military procurement system: it’s predictable. Predictably bad, yeah, but there’s something for consistency.

I’ve been writing about our bipartisan history of absolutely catastrophic military procurement for more than a decade. If anything, it’s actually gotten worse.

In fact, it was only about six weeks ago that I was writing here about the latest embarrassment in Canadian military procurement — our 10-year plan, which will probably end up running long, to procure 25,000 new 9 mm pistols to equip our military, replacing the Second World War-era pistols we currently use. Britain pulled off a similar procurement in two years. I don’t just mean generally similar, I mean eerily similar — the Canadian and British procurements are an accidental A-B test. I’m not sure which country is A or B, but I am sure which country was able to actually get new pistols to its armed forces. It wasn’t us, needless to say.

There was a bit of good news, of a sort, for the Canadian military this week. The government has finally agreed to pony up the dough to begin a life-extension process for our fleet of four Victoria-class submarines. The troubled service history of these boats, purchased used from the United Kingdom in late 1998 for a rock-bottom price that still turned out to be too damn much, is reasonably well known.

Having been mothballed by the Brits for years and allowed to rust, the boats were absolute nightmares to bring into service. But they were, eventually, turned into effective warships. Just as important, our experiences with them have given our naval personnel the chance to retain, and even build on, the very specific technical skillsets required to maintain and operate modern submarines.

Having made these investments in both money and human capital, and having finally gotten good warships with good crews that are doing important work for Canada, it would have been outrageously stupid to then retire these subs in the coming years, as they begin to reach the upper limit of their service lives.

Alas, “outrageously stupid” is not without precedent in the long history of Canadian national defence policy. It’s actually nearer the baseline than I’d like. So no one was taking a decision to refit the boats as a given.

So, yes, by all means. Let’s celebrate the Canadian government making a not-insane decision on defence matters, a low bar we often fail to meet. This shouldn’t be a good news story, but it is. The refit program will modernize the four ships and keep them in service and combat-effective into the 2030s, or, in Canadian military procurement years, probably the 2040s. If not longer!

Call me a cynic, though, but I can’t quite celebrate this as the (relative) win this inarguably is. The good news of 2019 is almost certainly setting up the bad news for 2029. I might as well start writing my exasperated column now and save Future Matt the trouble.

Here’s the problem. Extending the life of the submarines solves our problem in the short and medium terms. We’ll continue to have good boats and good crews throughout the 2020s and some time into the 2030s, and knowing us, we’ll continue to operate not-so-good boats for too long after that. But the only real point of preserving our carefully amassed cadre of skilled crew and technicians is if we intend to keep operating a submarine fleet. And that means we need to get the ball rolling on ordering the next generation of Canadian submarines. Like, now.

Because here’s the thing with mid-life extensions of military hardware: you need to have some clue what you’re extending it until and what you’re extending it for. Warships are complicated. They take years to design and build. Submarines are especially complicated. There is a long, long lead time for these kinds of warships. The Australians, for instance, began their next-generation submarine program in earnest in 2016 — and they expect the first ships to begin entering service probably sometime in the early 2030s. German Type-212 submarines, a proven design already in service, still need seven or eight years to actually be assembled once a contract is signed.

That clock is already ticking for Canada. The amount of useful life left in the Victoria-class is also probably about as long as it will take us to replace them. If we get moving soon on a next-generation class of submarine, they’ll be ready by the time the life-extended Victoria-class submarines begin to age out.

But this being Canada, we probably won’t. We’ll do instead what we did with our Sea King helicopters, naval destroyers, logistics supply ships, tanks and cargo planes, and what we’re doing right now with our CF-18 fighter fleet: we’ll wring every last hour of service out of them, well past the point of the hardware being economical to maintain, safe for the crews to operate or even combat-effective, and then we’ll panic when we realize we simply can’t keep them in service any longer and don’t have any replacements. Then we’ll blow even more money to rush a replacement at greater cost or simply give up on a vital military capability altogether.

This is how military procurement gets done in Canada. It would be awesome if we’re turning a new leaf, and if the extension of the Victoria-class submarines, followed by an on-time replacement, ends up breaking that pattern. But I’m not holding my breath. You shouldn’t either.

Matt Gurney is host of The Exchange with Matt Gurney on Global News Radio 640 Toronto and a columnist for Global News.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4879063/commentary-canada-submarine-replacement/

by **Diesel** Sat 02 Mar 2019, 11:15 am

DND extends life of submarine escape suits beyond expiry date as fleet shows its age

Liberals plan to modernize and sail the navy's 4 aging submarines until 2040

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Mar 01, 2019

Submarines Hmcs-windsor-returns-20180620

HMCS Windsor returns to port in Halifax in June 2018.

The Canadian navy's stock of survival suits, which allow submariners to escape in an emergency from a sunken boat, has been thrown a lifeline after much of the equipment had reached its expiry date, federal documents reveal.

The critical safety suits give stranded crew members the ability to ascend from a depth of 183 metres and protect against hypothermia.

They even inflate into a single-seat life raft once on the surface.

The orange whole-body suits were part of the original equipment aboard the Victoria-class submarines, diesel-electric boats originally built for the Royal Navy and purchased from Britain in the late 1990s.

Documents obtained by CBC News show there was concern among naval engineers, in late 2016, that many of the suits had passed or were about to pass their best-before, safety dates.

A spokeswoman for the Defence Department said a decision was made to extend the life of suits while the federal government procures new ones — a process that is ongoing.

There is no threat to safety, said Jessica Lamirande.

"The service life extension was approved based on successful, rigorous testing at the Naval Engineering Test Establishment on a representative sample of suits that had passed their intended service lives," said Lamirande, in a recent email.

"Testing consisted of detailed visual inspection, leakage tests, and functional testing."

Sailors stand on the deck of HMCS Victoria as they leave port in Halifax in 2003. Victoria is one of four submarines purchased from the United Kingdom.

Fleet sailing until 2040

But defence experts say it is a small project that speaks volumes about the Liberal government's plan to modernize and keep operating the four submarines until 2040, a proposal that was articulated in the latest defence policy.

Retired commander Peter Haydon, who also taught defence policy at Dalhousie University in Halifax for years, said keeping submarine replacement parts and equipment in the system has been an ongoing headache for the navy, dating back to the 1980s.

However, the bigger concern is: As the boats age, the strength of their pressure hulls declines.

The government plans to modernize the boats, but Haydon said that's fine for the electronic and other components.

"You can modernize most things, but you can't modernize the hull, unless you build a new hull," he said.

Pressure to buy new

The Senate and House of Commons defence committees have recommended the government begin exploring options now for the replacement of the submarines, which took years to formally bring into service after they were purchased.

The government, in its response to a committee report last fall, argued it is already fully engaged building Arctic patrol ships and replacements for frigates and supply ships.

Buying new submarines is a topic that has been debated behind the scenes for a long time at National Defence with one former top commander, retired general Walt Natynczyk ordering — in 2012 — a study that looked at the possible replacements.

They're running a risk with the lives of sailors, the older these vessels get in an extremely dangerous environment, especially when they're submerged.

— Michael Byers, University of British Columbia

University of British Columbia defence expert Michael Byers has been quoted as saying he's worried Canada "will lose its submarine capability through negligence rather than design," noting that it is politically more palatable to refurbish the underwater fleet rather than endure a painful procurement process.

"They're running a risk with the lives of sailors, the older these vessels get in an extremely dangerous environment, especially when they're submerged," said Byers, who pointed to the loss of the Argentine submarine San Juan and its crew of 44 in 2017.

"I would be more comfortable with a decision to buy a new fleet submarines than the current path that we're on. I have been skeptical as to whether we need submarines, but better a new fleet than send our sailors to sea in these old vessels."

Since Canada does not have the technology, nor has it ever constructed its own submarines, the federal government would be required to go overseas to countries such as Germany or Sweden to get them built.

Restricted diving

In the meantime, Haydon said he's confident ongoing maintenance and the stringent safety standards among Western allies will keep the Victoria-class submarines in the water and operating safely.

He cautions, however, like Canada's previous submarines retired in the 1990s, the Oberon class, the older the current fleet gets, the more their diving depth will eventually have to be restricted.

As the hull and its valves weaken, the less pressure they can sustain.

Lamirande said the navy has enough escape submarine suits whenever it deploys, and she emphasized it never goes to sea with "expired" equipment.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/submarine-escape-suits-1.5036007?fbclid=IwAR0iWKo6Mn3bEjYsnO2wx5dHLjarohNxoaUqvy_UCsolPVTrAyJflyoi1r0

by Dragonforce Sat 02 Mar 2019, 6:55 pm

Inside a top secret Canadian submarine

CBC News: The National
Published on Feb 6, 2018

by **Forcell** Wed 08 May 2019, 8:39 am

Scheer rolls out an ambitious defence agenda, but critics ask: Where's the money?

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: May 08, 2019

HMCS Windsor, one of Canada's Victoria-class long range patrol submarines, returns to port in Halifax on June 20, 2018.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-foreign-defence-policy-procurement-trudeau-1.5127028

by **Vizzer** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:33 pm

Canada to spend $500M on U.S. anti-submarine torpedo

Published Thursday, June 13, 2019

Sailors aboard a U.S. guided-missile destroyer load MK-54 torpedoes into torpedo tubes in an undated U.S. Navy photo (U.S. Navy)

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/canada-to-spend-500m-on-u-s-anti-submarine-torpedo-1.4465228

by Zapper Wed 10 Jul 2019, 5:47 pm

July 10, 2019

Canadian Armed Forces set to release study on long-term health effects of HMCS Chicoutimi fire

HMCS Chicoutimi rests on the syncrolift after being removed from the harbour in Halifax on Saturday, Nov. 5, 2006.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5480210/caf-hmcs-chicoutimi-fire/

by **Stayner** Wed 10 Jul 2019, 7:28 pm

Caught on camera: 'Not a Canadian submarine' spotted off Victoria

Published Wednesday, July 10, 2019

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/caught-on-camera-not-a-canadian-submarine-spotted-off-victoria-1.4502725

by **Spider** Thu 11 Jul 2019, 8:02 am

Navy to release health survey from fatal HMCS Chicoutimi fire in 2004

CBC News · Posted: Jul 11, 2019

The Canadian submarine HMCS Chicoutimi, in a 2018 file photo, in an allied port after a surveillance patrol in Asia-Pacific waters.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-chicoutimi-health-survey-findings-1.5206852

by Dalton Thu 11 Jul 2019, 3:50 pm

'We should have done better': Military releases damning study into submarine disaster

Published Thursday, July 11, 2019

On July 11, 2019, it was revealed that 60 per cent of the Chicoutimi’s crew suffered post-traumatic stress disorder, 21 per cent suffered asthma and 15 per cent suffered depression in the wake of the disaster. (CTV Vancouver Island)

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/we-should-have-done-better-military-releases-damning-study-into-submarine-disaster-1.4504241

by Lonestar Thu 11 Jul 2019, 5:33 pm

Rates of PTSD, asthma significantly higher in crew after navy sub fire: survey

Mairin Prentiss · CBC News · Posted: Jul 11, 2019

Submarines Hmcs-chicoutimi-fire-2004-scotland-submarine

Submarines Hmcs-chicoutimi-fire-2004-scotland-submarine

HMCS Chicoutimi makes its way into Faslane naval base in Scotland on Oct. 10, 2004, following a fatal fire onboard during an Atlantic crossing.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-chicoutimi-health-survey-findings-1.5206852

by Jeremiah Thu 11 Jul 2019, 9:42 pm

Navy commander apologizes to HMCS Chicoutimi sailors for health study delay

By Michael MacDonald, THE CANADIAN PRESS
Published Thursday, July 11, 2019

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/navy-commander-apologizes-to-hmcs-chicoutimi-sailors-for-health-study-delay-1.4504383

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